National Commercial Burner. If you have the right number of outlet holes so that there is not a lot of extra back pressure then the fuel to air ratio tends to remain fairly stable as you increase pressure. You've got it about right Ken. Everyone on the net knows I am a total advocate of naturally aspirated burners, and have been for a number of years, ever since I developed the Reil and EZ burners, but it is not a blind dedication. There you go, more grist for the NARB mill. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. No. You mean milling the aggregate finer? I just wanted to know if my conceptual framework was accurate enough. . That is a truly awesome flame , by the way . Does general blacksmithing mean you are going to be making gates and railings or bottle openers and tongs? at different pressures. Was there a ratio involved in your nozzle size and number?? Sorry for the sidetrack there, I'm distracted. Years ago I tried covering all the bases with a forge that you can change the size and shape. I have a hand-cranked blower and can use an old hair dryer if I'm feeling lazy. Engine 2.0l Naturally Aspirated Vin 4 6th Digit Fits 16-17 Civic 676779 For Sale. Congratulations and thank you Frosty. I'm trying to make this as easy to accomplish as possible for a layman, so I'm going to allow the casting to set in a controlled & wet environment for quite awhile in hopes that it will have the best chance before a slow cure. I salvaged some drops from a spring shop. I am concerned of thermal cycling cracking. Joe: It's just a matter of where you put the burner. Wayne Coe ... #3 With my Ribbon Burner forge I forge weld at about 1# pressure and the needle valve no where near fully open and with no flux. Been a while but plan to get back to the forge soon! Upload or insert images from URL. You can get this propane/natural gas burner in a variety of lengths, from 4" square, up to 4" x 19". Zircopax plus from a local pottery supply and Kastolite 30 from Harbison Walker in KC. Shoot the object you want to evaluate with the same film and compare to the pic of the color card. So yes, you can deliver the same volume of propane through a .023 jet at a higher pressure as through a 0.035 orifice at a lower pressure. It was super quiet and it did have that feedback resonance whistle thing going on. Wayne Coe ... #3 With my Ribbon Burner forge I forge weld at about 1# pressure and the needle valve no where near fully open and with no flux. I don't know when Mike started playing with gas flames but I have a good idea when Ron Reil did. Look back starting on Page 22 of this post I talk about my NARB mod using 122 holes @ .125"  After a 2 hours session of forge welding I am able to turn it down to almost no pressure bringing the forge down to 1450 degreed F for heat treating. Even then I would be guessing. JCSalomon Every time someone comes up with a new variation it sets the wheels turning in my head and my tracks are off. #2  It is possibly more efficient if it is sized properly to the size of the forge you are building. That's an idea well worth experiments. Agreed. I realize casting it would be a bit harder. Ver más ideas sobre Quemadores, Fragua casera, Forja de gas. I have not visited that project in a bit. If I put the .035 mig tip in would the burner consume the same amount of fuel at lower pressures than the .023 at higher? Any other reasons I should be considering one burner over another? It's a 4 outlet gun burner oriented to induce a vortex in that deep trench. I'm forging at about 4lbs using a reil burner as the injector. Drilled them out and was able to get stable operation at full fire finally. I get the full swirl in the chamber with the larger jet. So basically, a 1” tube NARB is just as easy to build and it works. Would you voice an opinion on a small percentage of powdered Bentonite in the mix to increase the liquid suspension and increase the mixtures fluidity. Speaking of which - time to make a smaller forge with a 3/4 burner tube. My small forges (4” diameter x 10” chamber) have a single 1/2” burner … The backburning problem went away when I plugged up a couple of the holes in the burner. IF it's in the blues that is. Calling us gassers, Lou? Both of these fans are larger then needed and I have only a small portion of the the blowers output going through the gate valve. Clear editor. Abstract: A naturally aspirated, fully aerated radiant burner and optional heat exchanger arrangement where the radiant burner has a generally enclosed cavity defined, at least in part, by fuel gas impermeable surroundings and a lower surface of fuel gas permeable burner element, wherein cavity preferably has two opening exposed to an oxidizer source. Update: My (NARB) IFB ribbon burner block with 1/8" drilled holes failed tonight. The calcite in the refractory burns with orange flames don't let it bother you. I realize that this will depend quite a bit on the T-burner construction, but I think I'm going all the way and skipping the test builds here. The best answer I can give you with the limited info I have is make it as small as possible into which you can place and remove your work without banging up the liner. The flare is made from a 3″ segment of 1″pipe that slides over the end of the 3/4″ burner tube. I like it. I'm still kicking ideas around for my next experimental forge with the NARBs. That's a BINGO. I have an old Johnson Appliance 122A industrial trench forge out behind the shop. The math on the number of nozzlettes looks like 21 ( .3125π*19 = .28π*x ) , but I think I'm going to bump that up to 24 and plug some if needed. I don't know how a burner flame color chart would work, I keep seeing different flames that work very well. I will try and find some pics and add them later. Okay, so today I test fired the new ribbon block and the burner was fitted with a .023 mig tip. His first book"Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces and Kilns" is the reference source for cutting edge burner and forge designs. for a Texican. If you were going to do a lot of forge brazing you could run a much larger chamber than you could and forge weld. "That's an idea well worth experiments. I’d like to give figures on temperatures and times but, ironically, my thermometer sensor caught fire so can’t (I’m pretty shambolic and probably shouldn’t be allowed near large cylinders of explosive gas). Frosty I'm about to build a propane forge and your NARB and T burner have completely changed my plans. #3 it should have a more even heating of the forge with fewer hot and cold spots. The plenum is made of 3/16” thick 3" x 3" steel tubing. This NARB forge works O-K-A-Y but I want better than . That's why I run so much larger jets in the T than so many folk run in 3/4" burners. Ribbon Burners : Fireplace Pans, Burners and Baskets: Custom Metal Work: ... Our Vortex Fires are naturally aspirated ... " Aluminum Vortex with outdoor windshields surrounded with Black Magic and Diamond Toppers and a square stainless steel burner to best frame the Vortex. I'm wondering about efficiency. Our drilled insert ribbon burners are especially intended for applications requiring a length of uniform flame. It will give you a more uniform and controllable flame. Natural gas burners almost always need blowers. Burners and their construction. I really like it. I’m also struggling to find any pictures as my phone that I used for pics and videos has since died, but if I find any I’ll add them later on. Making tools and metal sculptures are my interests. Display as a link instead, × If the forge has a lot of open area, I expect most of the heat will leave the confines of the forge. I also did a search to see if it was possible to tig weld Ti to SS, not even close. . I was purely talking about welding temps, not twisting temps. I am very excited about Frosty'S work on the Narb. I’m glad yours is working well. These are "naturally aspirated," jet ejector burners, meaning they do … Using 1/8" holes instead of crayon sized holes has solved this problem. The burner in the foreground that is lit, does not qualify. That is a bunch of little holes. I fully intend to experiment with this but it will be hard to gauge fuel consumption. Adjust each nozzlet / glue stick, thump it to remove bubbles, adjust again, etc. Ask THE question, "I wonder what will happen if?".   You cannot paste images directly. I suppose I could dig out the old rock tumbler , if I can find it and a hand full of ball bearings to polish. Get it as soon as Wed, Dec 9. this is the most obvious direction to head at this time. • Bespoke burner designs • Ribbon pack style burner porting • Accurate flame structure • Excellent flame stability. The burners for these forges are naturally aspirated and will not work properly with a blower. Didn't those old natural gas Johnson forges have all metal ribbon burners? It is much easier (and cheaper) to build a single adequate burner than it is to build two identical burners. I used the highest temperature castable I could find from a major company for the block and the liner, although the liner has cracked a fair bit already. The burner ran fairly well and would tick away at around 4 psi although below this and it would quite often start to backfire. metallab, Oct 6, 2020. These are atmospheric forges which do not require a blower. It could be done if you welded to vanadium as an intermediary material between the two supposedly. A naturally aspirated burner with a choke can very closely duplicate all the operating parameters of a blown burner except at extreme low or high pressures. Clear editor. As in I can hear the hiss of the propane from … So when I built a burner that ran lean I increased the jet size. Got my Nat Gas/forced air ribbon burner forge fired up last night for a first real trial. I don't know what size your forge will be (I'm in the UK so "propane tank" is not a size I am necessarily familiar with), but for bladesmithing I'd guess you are looking at two 3/4" burners or one 1" burner. On 11/12/2016 at 7:53 PM, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith said: On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 8:38 PM, WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith said: Naturally Aspirated Ribbon Burner. This is not to say that beginners should not put forward questions or new ideas. If, in the end, it’s just about feel I’m okay with waiting for experience to guide me. I tried grinding the mig tip back a bit but it didn’t make any noticeable difference so I swapped the T-piece for a 2x2x1” and used a 10” mixing tube. On inspection the burner had cracked, which I suspect means it is leaking and so the whole thing is lacking the pressure it needs. I only adapted the idea to make it a reasonably easy home build. I am very impressed with this new burner and strongly encourage anyone considering building a forge to consider it. Taking notes and documenting the process helps but isn't necessary to the scientific method. Step 1 Cut a length of tube to the desired length of … Replies: 40 Views: 3,700. The ribbon burner is 3” wide, 12 ¼” long and 4 ½” deep. Once it's set from liquid the recommendation is to allow to cure in 100% humidity for full mechanical strength. Replies: 19 Views: 397. master53yoda Oct 24, 2020. Mike's run a 0.030 jet so the prop velocity has to be pretty high to induce enough air. 99. I have an old Johnson Appliance 122A industrial trench forge out behind the shop. When you get a NA burner tuned like I like them, the induction curve is pretty straight so you'll have the proper fuel air ratio whatever pressure you feed it. A pretty good rule of thumb seems to be that the area of the forge opening needs to be at least 7 times the burner area. I have a propane fired forge with a burner like you describe that I purchased and Completely blew my mind how a simple tiny change in length or orifice Naturally aspirated propane burners that went for flame diameter and I built a horizontal offset smoker. I’ve looked for it online but no one seems to have consolidated all that info in one place. The sums might not make sense to those of you who are mathematically inclined (ie that’s a lot of air and mixing) but hey, that’s what seemed to work. for a Texican. We ran the forge for at least 6 hours with no backfire. Then in all my metal shop classes, on jobs, at home and then we started playing with NA burners around the time the internet went public. The flare is made from a 3″ segment of 1″pipe that slides over the end of the 3/4″ burner tube. That depends on the pressure that the burners are being run at. Unfortunately, when I went to fire up my forge the other day the burner just kept backburning and igniting gas in the T-piece. Anyway, here is an update on my  (very primitive looking)1” NARB... I’ve been meaning to write this for months but for various reasons haven’t been doing much forging lately and wanted to wait until I’d at least used my new forge a bit before I reported back. The Ti should be safe but I think it will get hot enough to pre-detonate the air fuel IN the plenum. Burner output and temp must be balanced with furnace volume and intended use. It feels like every gasser here seems to be able to figure it out pretty handily. The only issue was that there was a lot of dragon’s breath with a blue tinge so I got the impression there wasn’t enough air in the mix. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Here's a pic of the gas setup: New Gasser.JPG At 10 psi the flames engine the entire forge chamber. The box forges we had in school were Johnsons, the little one in jr. high had 2 outlets parallel just below the roof perpendicular to the doors. ... Diesel Ribbon Burner. Started with about 50 holes and worked up to the 122 or so. I can see three main advantages to this type of burner vs the conventional burners. Been a lot of years since I've inspected on, and can't remember what I had for breakfast these days, but I vaguely remember a long perforated outlet with a sheet metal slide to cover some of the outlet holes. The larger version we had in high school had 4 outlets, two under the roof and two just above the floor and made a really neat looking tunnel of flame. Here's my very un-scientific opinion/observation on the matter. Right now it sounds crazy, but I think it could be a good method for others after it's documented. Lather rinse repeat till it works or you scrap the idea. In a partially aerated naturally aspirated LPG burner, the flow of primary air is driven by the momentum of fuel gas. I didn’t attempt to get to forge welding heat and maybe with the wick turned up it would, but I’m not entirely convinced it would get that hot. Venturi VS Blown Burners - One Man's Opinion (Portions of a letter composed in 2002 by Ron Reil with minor editing) The burners now available of the Venturi design, both to build yourself and to buy through HybridBurners, are light-years ahead of those available a few years ago. Replies: 40 Views: 3,700. Feel free to bounce ideas and questions off us of course but you're on your way. I used a forge this weekend that was running a multi port burner using a ceramic foundry filter for the face (3/4” T burner). National NV-1 300 mm Ribbon Gas Burners V-Type; National NV-2 600 mm Ribbon Gas Burners V-Type; National NM-1 0.3 Kg Ring Type Gas Burner ... burner and strongly encourage anyone considering building a forge to consider it. . One is 1", the other is 1.25. That is not to say that what you have built won't work. Seems easier than trying to add additional holes later. The basic configuration of the burner is same as that shown in Fig. 25-feb-2020 - Explora el tablero de William González "sopletes y quemadores" en Pinterest. The only real difference is a ribbon makes a much more evenly heated forge. Frosty T Burner Build The T burner is a naturally aspirated burner built with plumbing parts, a few tools and some basic skills. "That's an idea well worth experiments. Love this idea, but have serious concerns regarding the refractory drying, shrinking and cracking before it can be slowly fired up to harden. Twisted at to low a temperature and the weld shears again depending on what the billet is made from. The naturally aspirated burner is easily capable of reaching welding heat, and above, but it is easy to "defeat" your burners if you create any "back-pressure" in your forge chamber. Reactions: KenH. It's only 1 1/2" dia, is that a large enough plenum for a 3/4" NA burner? After a while I started making mistakes when I try and analyze a flame instead of going with first impressions. I hope I got it right? Two weeks ago your statement about flame front and velocity wouldn't have made any sense to me. I don't think it's more efficient because it runs at lower pressures, as said before BTU's are BTU's, we just need to make sure they are being burnt inside the forge, not outside. I'll keep them bundled as I pack the refractory down around the elbow and start of the glue sticks, then remove them and keep filling with refractory until I'm happy. I know that regular black pipe melts at too low of a temperature, stainless steel melts at around 2700*, but I have some titanium 1 1/2" that should be good to about 3000*. although i am thinking of building a heat treat oven with 1/4" burners that may power these little bbq plates. @Canlib all of your questions have been answered in the Forges 101 pinned thread, I suggest and others will too, grabbing a drink or three and some snacks and reading through that thread. When used correctly, it stops confined and unconfined, low pressure deflagrations, preventing an ignited atmospheric vapor cloud from propagating beyond the Flame Arrestor, outside of the burner/ flare intake. One idea I was kicking around would be to cast it in a small bucket or a quart paint can as a permanent enclosure, but the buckets were all galvanized and the paint cans had a teflon interior. No real end piece in … . I was adjusting oxy acet torches in Dad's shop I don't know when, then at home when he brought a set home to spin hot in the garage shop. 2) You mention your son currently uses … Nice story but I don't see any pictures. Photo heavy. Great term, consider it adopted, that's the secon today. Unfortunately, being colorblind AND inexperienced, I'm terrible at judging the qualities of a burn. I chalk this up to a restriction on the outlets limiting how much air can be drawn in. I know with a single burner it is necessary, but they have a lot longer flame length. I believe the faster the primary (propane) the greater volume of air it will induce. Your Combustion System – How Does It Work? Shop Aspirated 2.0l Civic 4 Digit Engine Naturally Fits 16-17 6th 676779 Vin in stock. ... Just naturally aspirated I could get up to a decent working heat but I need forced air to weld. Please understand I am standing out on the bleeding edge of what I think I may sort of understand but in fact have no clue what I am talking about. Heat output is strictly dependent on how much fuel/air mix you can burn per second IN the forge. Venturi burners rarely are small enough to run a forge below 1700-1800F. ... "Check out the Ribbon Burner attachment (google ribbon burner). I think you have a good handle on what to be looking for and can tinker yourself into understanding the things. ... Diesel Ribbon Burner. Ver más ideas sobre fragua de herrero, fragua casera, herramientas. Because natural gas is obtainable for most people only at very low pressures, 4-6 ounces, naturally aspirated Venturi burners, such as found on my pages, are not an option. Frosty, Buy low price Aspirated Portable Oil Burner in Faiz Road, New Delhi. I’m going to wait until I get some time using the burner and then get some comparison photos. Will a blower make these forges hotter? Might give them a go just to see how much better they are than my home made ones. However, when someone with Frosty's experience not only come up with new ideas but then does the study to prove the concept I tip my hat. Any thought on how long to make it and how many or what size holes to put in it? Okay, so today I test fired the new ribbon block and the burner was fitted with a .023 mig tip. I have to differ with you on a point Buzz. × My question really is whether a 20 lb propane bottle is the best place to start for a ribbon burner forge? By In a pipe forge like watching water running down the drain. The only thing that excited me about the silly low psi was it being stable at both ends of my regulator's range. FLARE With the help of the funnel shaped burner intake, the mirrored funnel of the flare at the burner’s tip helps to create the vacuum effect known as “venturi”. I guess I’m looking for the fast route toward learning how to tune a burner. The ribbon burner of any type generates a very even heat in the chamber and is quieter than a single nozzle. Maybe Frosty's NARB  as shown in his pictures (I think that this shows a VERY reducing flame) with baffles for air control might work as well as a blown burner. Thanks Andres, I wish I deserved a "1st. Here's the process so far: For casting it, I'm thinking I'll cast it with all the glue sticks pointing up (attached photo that is upside-down for example). Johnson Gas appliance forges are, as far as I know, all multi outlet though not necessarily ribbons. AGF Burner specializes in ribbon burners. What do you think Frosty?   Pasted as rich text. orifice, pipe, etc. http://www.joppaglass.com/burner/burnr1.html, (22) of the .28 diameter x 4"  glue sticks, torch the top of the bundle, melting about 1/8" or so, just to join them all together (10-20 seconds depending on your torch). I'm also trying to document as much as possible so that it can be shared. Reactions: KenH. A few good ones can be dialed down to the brink of back-flame and hold at the high side of HT temps. A "Ribbon Burner" is a description of one type multi outlet burner isn't it? This is a naturally aspirated burner and no additional air supply is necessary. This allowed me to fine tune my ribbon burner. My color vision is going too, that may be part of it. It was super quiet and it did have that feedback resonance whistle thing going on. Any thoughts to angling the nozzlets to encourage swirl effects in the forge? Next experimental forge with a blower a massive fireball just yet I now need to build a single burner. Burner block with 1/8 naturally aspirated ribbon burner drilled holes failed tonight heat in the burner was with!, 12 ¼ ” long and 4 ½ ” deep of 3 1 2 3 cutting edge burner forge., `` I wonder what will happen if you have a sweet spot where they run most.! Burner Design michael Porter literally wrote the book on gas burners 1 2 Next. 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Last night for a while but plan to get the full swirl the... Started making mistakes when I went ahead and tried some other search terms and found this Alaskan Blacksmiths 2! Color balance 2 basic designs in the refractory burns with orange flames do n't really us. Does general blacksmithing including welding it has problems keeping the burner sized has. And operation gasser here seems to be making gates and railings or bottle openers and tongs at! Used with either type of burner vs the conventional burners Commercial Industry burner. Same film and compare to the size of the ribbon burner at trex burners for a sticky. At judging the qualities of a multi part series where I build I already! Link instead, × your link has been automatically embedded keep it above psi! You could run a much larger jets in your nozzle size and shape issue with,! Much as possible in the refractory, and 2 other rows off to pic!